TripTrey

Cody and Victoria are two peas in a Derrick pod. Both have attach to a ?dominant? male and both are non-entities in the game. Their sole value is as a jury vote.

I agree that AP is lame, but would add that Derrick, Frankie also didn't do anything interesting like targeting Cody or Christine.

I don't agree that Donny is there at the pleasure of Derrick. Donny has been on the block several times only to wriggle out of their grasp. In my opinion, Derrick has a lot less control than either he or his fans believe he has. He has surfed the wave supported by a 'keep the numbers' tactic pushed and pushed and pushed by Caleb. It's an old and obvious tactic, but it's also true that it is a tactic most heavily pushed by Caleb not Derrick. Why Derrick gets credit for keeping the BS/Det together is curious. Derrick is riding that wave along with Frankie, Zach, Cody as much as they are riding it with him. He's definitely getting the mastermind edit and Donny is definitely getting the nice guy edit, but Derrick is a mastermind among shrimps and the fact that Donny is a truly nice guy is only really important in the real world.

I don't think Donny views himself in a victim role in this game or in life in general~does he get lonely, yes, they all do. Does he fell shunned after his friends left, yes, we all would. But in terms of game issues he has never shown us anything but a player patiently/firmly standing his ground and working his game. They have not made him do a single thing that he didn't want to do and the fact that this is so obvious is actually a flaw in his game. So, I don't agree with those fans that believe that he has been a chess piece or has ever submitted to the BS/Det wishes or demands. As far as I can tell, he's the only one in the house who has ever actually stood up to Derrick when he refused the AP task. The game is not quite over for him or us. It doesn't look good, but he has shown the ability to come through in the clutch in the past. Who knows, maybe he's a goner, or maybe he'll survive another week. He's definitely the Det's worst nightmare; they can't control him and none of them is as well liked as his is by the current three member jury. I seriously doubt that it's likely, but if he were to miraculously survive to the F2, having those three votes in his pocket is big. If he's up against Cody, Zach, Christine, Caleb, Vic or Frankie and he's got a very good chance of winning this thing--and there we have the best argument for getting rid of him. He's an obvious danger to their chances.

The individual endgame has definitely begun.

They haven't run him over yet... maybe this week they'll get him.

Or to put it more clearly, Derrick, Cody, Frankie and Christine were more than ready to cut Zach loose until Caleb convinced the Det that Zach must stay in order to stay safe themselves. Even Derrick admitted that. Yes, I agree that throughout the game Caleb has kept the focus on maintaining the superior numbers. So, if anyone has helped the BS and even the Det maintain control it would be the rightfully unpopular Caleb.

Again, our crystal balls are are showing us different pictures of the possibilities. I think Donny would have been central to the BS game and that his calming influence would have minimized the paranoia that creates the need to stay up into the wee hours. Deals, decisions and moves would have been made in the HOH during daylight hours like was done during the early seasons, there would be no game need to stay up all night. Derrick's scrambling game is pretty weak and in my humble opinion he would have had trouble getting to the jury. He would have left either right before or right after Brit. Those like Derrick, who hurry their speech, who repeat over an over again how honest they are, and who interrupt constantly are usually targeted pretty early on just as Devin was. Showing signs of extreme stress as Derrick has on those few time when he was pushed is deadly in this game. The BB sharks generally respond by circling closer and closer and then CHOMP, it's over. Vic is a non-issue in the image in my crystal ball, much like she is now. Hayden might have adopted her and she would have been just fine with that. Actually, she'd be better off as Derrick's behavior towards Vic have crossed the line at times into tiptoeing into the abusive. Hayden has never shown us the inner demons that Derrick has shown us. Of course, it's completely possible that she would have gravitated to Derrick but she seeks a dominate male and in this scenario his dominance would most definitely be diminished. I actually don't care very much about whether Donny finds his way past this week or not; I like him as a human being but he is really just an ever so slightly above average BBplayer. I guess I've begun to resign myself to a BS/Det win. Hope springs eternal for next years game. And I hope BB abandons the duel HOH nonsense, and also does a better job of picking a mix of strategic/physical/old/young/funny/serious/etc players. It wasn't Derrick that kept the Det from evicting Zach, it was Caleb.

I'd be interested to see the game played with the hands each is dealt switched. In that scenario, we may have come to see Donny as the Mastermind of the BS given his observation skills and analytical skills. And from the little we've seen of Derrick under stress, it's apparent that Derrick's scrambling game is less than good. How would we come to look on him in that situation. I do agree with you, neither is an exceptional player. Switch the cards and the truly good BB players still win.. think Dr Will with either hand dealt.

To be sure, Donny's game is a more subtle game than the constantly manic scrambling paranoia driven game that most play. One benefit of that bipolar style of game is that it is so much easier to understand for the fans than the more subtle low keyed game. The first is like downing a yard of ale in one swallow and the second is like sipping Merlot or in Donny's case, sipping Boones Farm Apple wine.

Now, THAT gave me a good chuckle with my morning coffee.. Thx JS and I aren't really all that different in our thinking... I give the tilt to Donny, JS gives it to Derrick, but we both acknowledge that neither is one of the better players when stacked up against players from past seasons. I haven't been able to find a favorite this season. I'd be happy with Donny going home soon, just as I would be happy with the rest of them heading out this week.

The duel HOH essentially forces each HOH to put up at least one weak player. Donny nominated Caleb and Victoria. Nicole was the other HOH and nominated Zach and Jacosta. Both put up a STRONG player with a weak player unlike some of the BS/Det HOH's that put up two weak players. I'm curious, how are Donny's noms any different from Derrick's noms of Caleb and Jacosta. For me, Derrick's are worse in that the Caleb's nom was completely contrived. A complete sham of a nom.. Caleb was never in danger and he knew it. No courage on Derrick's part with his noms. There was never really any choice to gather the outcasts into an alliance... by week four, three of the outcasts had been evicted. Remember, for them the game is still in it's early stages and they don't know what we know so the eviction pattern was still unclear to Nicole, Hayden, Victoria and Jacosta. Had the stronger outcasts Brit and Hayden not been picked off before they understood that Donny's assessment was spot on, there might have been a chance to create an alliance to battle the BS/Detonators, but this new alliance still would have been a minority alliance. It's not Donny's fault they didn't listen, it's theirs and they've paid for that mistake. I would argue that Donny stacks up nicely against Derrick, who most seem to think is doing a good job of playing the game. Donny's won more than Derrick and won some of those contests when he was on the block, which is when it's hardest to do & when it counts the most. Donny won under stress, Derrick has not been tested on the block. The truth is that Derrick has never really been in jeopardy because he was lucky enough to be in a room standing next to an athlete(Cody) when the BS was formed. If he had been chatting with Brittany at the time he would have had to fight for his BB16 life like the rest of the outcasts have, but he tripped over a bit of luck and now he's a 'good' player. Derrick has never had to win a POV or die. Derrick has never had to go it alone yet still find a way to survive. Derrick has been safe; he has even had the luxury of knowing that if he was ever to be put on the block that his mega alliance members would protect him. It's far easier to be brilliant or even just good if you aren't ever under any real pressure. Donny has never really freaked under pressure; Derrick has lost it those few times that he felt some small pressure... think back to when he talked to Brit after Devin spilled the beans on the BS. Derrick's word count went waaaayyy up, he repeated himself and repeated himself and repeated himself about how honest and straight forward he is, and he interrupted far more than he does when not under stress. All signs that the pressure got to him. Donny has remained cool about the game pressures. Both have felt homesick and have lost it in that way, but so have just about all of them. It looks like we disagree, I think Derrick is a subpar player who is playing with the luxury of safety and Donny is a slightly better than average player, playing against the house. I've got to go now, but thanks for the discussion tonight.

Spot on.

Now, here's where we agree. Derrick looks good by comparison to this years players but put him in most prior years and he'd be out very early. I am also not a fan of his treatment of Victoria in general, but specifically in the Beehive when he was going to 'get her to apologize.' That was beyond gameplay, that was abusive. He and Christine have mean streaks that go far deeper than run of the mill Big Brother deceit and manipulation.

Apparently we just disagree about what is a 'woe is me' strategy and what is not. I also don't agree that he just went to these folks 'once or twice.' Let's also remember that he has won his share of POV's and even an HOH so although he plays a quieter game, it's not a silent game. Where you see ‘woe is me’, I see patience and subtle persistence. His game is definitely a quieter, more subtle game than most enjoy watching. Let’s remember just how unusual a large day-2 alliance really is. How many have there been in the 16 seasons? How many large alliances (say more than 5 HGs) have actually done well regardless of when they started? How many 1st week 5+ person alliances have lasted for more than a few weeks? Not many. We’d have to admit that it’s longshot that an alliance that large could form that early on and even more of a longshot that it could remain relatively intact for even a full week. So, for Donny and the other outcasts to play the better percentages early on would be a wise strategy.(Normally) Even if the remaining HGs didn’t have their own agendas, all he actually had to pick from was Blue, Jacosta, Pao, Brit, Hayden, Nicole, and Victoria to choose from although neither Donny nor any of the outcasts could have known that at the time. Only we knew that. That’s some pretty slim pickings for alliance forming. Who here would have initially chosen from that list for a 7 – 8 person alliance to battle another 8 person alliance that had most of the competition monsters on it? Would they have been your first choices? So, even though he couldn’t have known this was his only real choice let’s go down the list.Blue who’s BB16 goal was to create the female version of the Brigade. No way she would have aligned with ‘duck dynasty’ ever, let alone the first week.Jacosta who’s goal was to play without lying or conniving and was powerfully resistant to talking game. No alliance forming possibilities there.Pao who goal was to get a tan, wiggle and giggle. Enough said.Brit who reasonably believed that she still had time to find a trusted partner and time enough to form an alliance. She thought she was in the process of forming one with Derrick and Cody until Devin's crazy crush blew her game up. She would possibly consider Donny at a later time.Hayden who also under the impression that large day 2 alliances are far too rare to take seriously believed that he was making inroads into Frankie and Cody’s game. So, he perceived no need to deal with Donny until it was too late.Nicole thought she had an alliance with Christine. Poor girl… No need to deal with Donny on a game level for her until it was too late.Victoria who was seeking the approval and acceptance from a dominate male. Donny doesn’t meet her dominate male requirements and so no Donny alliance here. So, Brit, Hayden and Nicole thought that they had the beginnings of their alliances forming and didn’t need Donny… Blue was gone in a heartbeat. Pao proved herself to be powerless and was gone lickety split. Jacosta put up a forcefield protecting her from gametalk. Victoria is a veritable mess. So, as the numbers of outcasts fell to 5 then 4, playing an aggressive game became insanity. Playing a more subtle game; watching and gathering insight into cracks in the powers alliance(s) is a much more reasonable choice to make. Donny made that choice. Seems reasonable to me. Getting thrown out 3 weeks ago is not a winning strategy to say the least. Hanging in there can be part of one. It doesn’t look good for Donny but then he has been a survivor, hasn’t he? Who knows what could happen… if Hayden and Nicole come back… unlikely as it would be, what would happen if Hayden, Nicole and Donny control the HOH for one week… One thing for certain, we would have a game then.

My choice will be Zach as he has entertained me more than any of the others. Donny next and then Hayden.

Historically, not every HOH room has been a community bedroom and and because of that, it offered alone time to figure things out. Consider that Dr Will, Dan and others also set aside alone time. Each did it in his/her own way and at his/her own time. Donny’s approach doesn’t just give him time to work things out in private, it also keeps him out of the nonsense that gets so many of the HG’s in trouble. He loses some conniving time but his approach has the benefit that the early morning time he spent with HGs like Brittany and Hayden was unobserved by the BS/Detonators and therefore much of his conniving time was under the radar. And that is valuable in a house full of paranoid 20 somethings. Dr Will didn’t really talk much more than Donny, but one difference is that Dr Will had good looks and a natural charm to protect him. Cody is an emotional mess but his good looks protect him. Cody talks constantly, but strategy-wise he’s a zero. Sometimes leaving what is on your mind unsaid is by far the wisest choice. The fastest talker or the HG that speaks the most is rarely the winner(Mike Boogie), but the one that chooses his/her words carefully usually does better than most(Dr Will). How many of the others have found themselves evicted because they talked too much? How about almost everyone evicted could point to saying something stupid or saying something to the wrong HG. Being careful with your words can be an asset in this game. I disagree with your notion that he didn’t want to go to people for an alliance. He approached both Brittany and Hayden. He also put out feelers to Zach and Caleb at various times when he saw cracks developing in their trust of their alliance. Brit ignored him. Hayden began to move closer to him. Neither Brit nor Hayden made those initial approaches. Donny did. But, that said, the layout of the game and the personalities of the HGs made approaching others more dangerous than usual. Going to Derrick, Cody, Frankie, Christine, Caleb, Zach, or Amber(for much of the game), would have been a sure path to instant eviction. Jocasta, and Pao were too weak to be of much use… so his choice was Brit and Hayden. He tried to use AP as a tool to create something with Frankie and Derrick but he figured them out too. He threw out much more than mere tidbits. He laid out the alliances and the power centers of those alliances. This kind of information is normally critically valuable in this game. But this year’s crop is too immature to pick up on the value of the info he gave them. 6 of the players are 23 or younger and another 6 are under 30… Donny is the only HG over 40. Most would admit that the maturity level of the average 20 something is very very different from the average 40 something. Many of the outcasts didn’t even realize they were outcasts and as a result they were loath to move far from the cool people. Like I said, Jacosta and Pao were too weak. Blue was a nut. Brit & Hayden thought they were in with the in crowd. And Nicole believed she was already aligned with Christine. None of outcasts with the exception of Hayden fully understood the value of his information and he realized that too late to be of use. In failing to do so, Brit and Hayden found their way out the door. So, who exactly was there to align with that could counteract the power of a day-2 8 person alliance or even a 5 person alliance? I think you may have missed his game because of your annoyance at the fans on some sites who have been far too fervent in their 'protection' of him. His game has been much more than sitting back and being a nice guy.

Personally, I think that Donny has played a very good game given the limitations of BB16. He has been keenly observant and was the first to have sussed out the actual teams, sub-teams, team cracks and potential divisions, and real power centers in the house. In an effort to change the game dynamic, Donny has given peeks into the actual power centers to Pao, Brittany, Hayden, and more recently Nicole. He also put some little feelers out to Caleb and Zach by giving them small peeks(veiled suggestions) into what the powers that be are actually doing. I agree with you, the early days of the game have so controlled the game environment that he has had very very little opportunity to engage others in his game or to stitch his game into theirs. This season is boring for the same reason that Donny hasn’t been in an alliance. The problem for Donny, the other outcasts and us, is that the 8 person BS formed at such an early stage of the game and has essentially maintained control of the game's oxygen that their is really no game to play for them or for us to enjoy. Once whatshername with the blue hair left, it was essentially game over for half of the house, leaving us to wait until they're down to 5 or 6 for the 'real' game to begin. Boring. Unfortunately for Donny, his is just so different from the others in the house that he lives in the extremes of their consciences… either he stands out in their minds as odd and suspicious or he is invisible to them. We’ve seen this flip plopping of their notice of Donny from the beginning. But soon he'll fall prey to the same sick and childish shunning/vilifying behaviors that previous eviction targets have experienced. It's my belief that the mix of HG's is tilted too far to the youngsters and this has given us a game without any real strategy and that ridiculous habit of voting with the house. It’s a shame that more BB16 players haven’t taken the time to sit back and observe before reacting; it would be a better game without the youthful emotions ruling the play. Most are either so safe that the stresses of the game haven’t hit them or the HG is under constant stress of eviction. At least Frankie had a scare… Derrick has been so safe from the beginning that he hasn’t really had a chance to actually play the game. The very few times that we have seen Derrick stressed (the first time was after Devin’s insanely emotional detailing of the BS to the house and Brittany), he has reacted poorly. Remember back to each of his very few stressed moments… he speeds up his speech to ridiculous levels, he attempts to claim that he’s the hurt party, he feigns anger, he repeats over and over how honest and straight forward he is… The better players of past seasons would have eaten his lunch when he reacted to stress like he does. I hope that next year we get two or more teams fighting to outwit the other(s).