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Judging and Voting Controversy


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Oh and even if none of the "soap freaks" voted for kelly and she came in dead last on the popular vote, she still wouldnt have gone home with a number one placement from the judges.

Is that the rule?

Hey I watch soaps but go to ABC.com message boards and you will see what a bunch of freaks those people are. THey are what have kept her on this show in the past and it has nothing to do with talent.

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Oh and even if none of the "soap freaks" voted for kelly and she came in dead last on the popular vote' date=' she still wouldnt have gone home with a number one placement from the judges.

Is that the rule?

Hey I watch soaps but go to ABC.com message boards and you will see what a bunch of freaks those people are. THey are what have kept her on this show in the past and it has nothing to do with talent. .[/quote']

No but look at how they calcualte the votes, the audience vote gets ranked the same way as the judges vote does and then the two totals get added together. if you come in first with the judges votes and everything else goes the exact opposite I think the worst you can do is a tie for last.

ie:

Tonights Judges votes:

Kelly 4

Rachel 3

Jonathan 2

Joey 1

if the popular vote went

Joey 4

Jonathan 3

Rachel 2

Kelly 1

They would all be tied at 5. Any other combo puts someone below kelly:

ie:

if the popular vote went

Joey 4

Rachel 3

Jonathan 2

Kelly 1

Kelly would have 5, Jonathan would have 4 and he would go home.

I think for the outcome to have played out the way it did

the popular vote was probably

Joey 4 total vote 5

Johnathan 3 total vote 5

Kelly 2 total vote 6

Rachel 1 total vote 4

or Kelly and jonathan were reversed and the tie breaker was previous totals?? I dont know. My point is that the "soap freaks" arent the sole reason she is still in. And I think she deserved her number one slot tonight. JMHO

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sure maybe this week but her first 3 weeks she sucked especially the first 2 How many points did they have from the judges? They were last the Cult of her fans on ABC.COM Message boards kept her there. She wasn't good she does not deserve to be there.

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Some 'Dancing' Voters Call Wrong Number

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MOUNT PLEASANT, Mich. - An apparent phone number mix-up has voters for an ABC reality show calling a central Michigan answering service instead. Fans of "Dancing with the Stars" were mistakenly calling a toll-free 888 number to vote for the dance team lead by actor John O'Hurley, known for his role as J. Peterman on the sitcom "Seinfeld."

The phone number to vote for his team was an 866 number, according to ABC's Web site. "People are saying that they are getting the number off the screen," phone operator Alannah Turnwald told the Morning Sun for a recent story.

Kathy Klein, owner of Mt. Pleasant Answering Service, said she was getting 200 to 300 mistaken calls on Wednesdays, when the show airs. "You can tell when the show ends at every time zone because the phones ring off the hook at the top of every hour," she said.

Calls cost Klein's answering service 6 cents per minute, plus the cost of an extra employee she has been forced to hire to weed them out. She said she wants ABC to reimburse her for the calls.

The network learned of the mix-up Thursday and is investigating, said Lauren Tobin, a spokeswoman for ABC. "It's clearly a case of people misreading the number on the screen," Tobin said

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The network learned of the mix-up Thursday and is investigating, said Lauren Tobin, a spokeswoman for ABC. "It's clearly a case of people misreading the number on the screen," Tobin said[/quote

Yeah sounds like that to me.. What the heck is going to happen now?

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Guest ranster627

TV GUIDE: Entertainment News

DANCING FOR THE DYSLEXIC: For weeks Dancing with the Stars viewers trying to vote for John O'Hurley have been dialing a Michigan answering service's 888 number instead of the twinkle-toed Seinfeld alum's 866 number. Is this another Idol-gate? Not according to ABC. "It's clearly a case of people misreading the number on the screen," a network rep tells the Associated Press. And maybe subconsciously working overtime to keep the heifer of a hoofer out of that Speedo.

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Don't all the stars have 866 numbers? So, isn't there a possibility that the others are being misread too. Either way, it's unfortunate for John O'Hurley. Despite the obvious mixup by some callers, I hope that he makes it into the final two.

Did anyone catch Rachel Hunter and her dance partner on Regis and Kelly this morning? She said she was very upset when she was eliminated. Then they did a routine and she was terrible, imo. She didn't smile at all and she seemed totally lost. At one point she looked at her partner as if to say, ok, what now? Too bad for her. (Or it's just way too early in the morning to dance. :wink: )

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This is just my opinion, but the whole concept of the voting was that the judges vote and the public vote were equally weighted. Given how they break the tie, then truly the system is set up so that if ultimately the public disagrees with the judges then there is a tie and the tie is broken by the head judge -- in essence that allows him to vote twice.

So lets say that 10 million people vote. 9,999,999 vote for John and 1 person votes for kelly. Next week Kelly gets a judge vote of 7 from Bruno, 7 from Carrieanne (is that her name) and 7 from Len as Head Judge for a total of 21. John gets a 8 from Bruno and 8 from Carrie Anne and an 4 from Len for a total of 20. Read the rules. In this scenario dispite John having won higher marks from the viewers and from 2 of the 3 judges it is still a tie, Kelly gets 3 points (2 from the judicial votes and 1 from the public), John gets 3 points (2 public and 1 judicial point) and Len who already gave the round to Kelly would get to break the tie. Am I the only person who thinks this is a totally wacked way of choosing the winner.

IMHO in the case of a TIE they should tally up the public and judge vote for all six weeks and THAT should be the tie breaker.

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Count me among those that thought Dancing with the Celebrities was a joke!!! OMG I think I am going to have to take a pass on it unless its a bunch of people I really want to see fall on their butts. (tom Cruise and Corey Clark come to mind) :rofl

And yes I think the head judge breaking the tie for Dancing stinks. I cant imagine a scenario where John doesnt win and while John winning doesnt bother me (I think either would be worth and they are sooooo different that comparing them to me is like the proverbial apples and oranges) but the idea of sitting through an hours worth of show when the end is a forgone conclusion stinks. Can you imagine if they did American Idol this way -- okay America you can vote but if Simon disagrees he can change it!! Well at least the singers would stop mouthing off to Simon LOL

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ranster I dont know if that is applause or ribbing from you -- but I will take it as applause..... :wink:

On a serious note, my background is political so I have been to many a convention -- each one with its own rules, procedures etc. Its also true for any large organization you belong to -- the usually use Parlimentary procedure and if you have ever looked at Roberts Rules -- the guide for Parlimentary procedure -- you will see that someone with a really good knowledge can confuse, delay, and generally obstruct to get something defeated or passed if the other guy doesnt know what he or she is doing. So in essence much of my life has been about reading rules and procedures so that I dont get our maneuvered or a meeting doesnt get bogged down (thus trapping me in terminal boredom for hours.) I tell you this so you know how my mind works -- always looking at the angles :shock: Ok I am a geek!!

But being a geek is what made me go to the rule page at abc several times to try and figure out exactly what the voting looked like. The rules are very convoluted IMHO which allows abc to over simplify on the show. The show explanation is simply the public votes, the judges vote we combine the scores and poof there is a winner. The devil here is in the details.

Is it possible that Kelly could win - previously I said probably not. But I have to amend that statement. Her winning or losing depends upon whether the voting is free of backstage politics. If it is done by the rule with no politicing, I doubt Kelly can win since essentially she has to win both the public vote and the judges vote. If she only wins one category it goes to a tie braker and based on the rules and the judges previous preference for Johns style of dancing, a tie would likely go his way. What that means is that he only has to win one category to win and that obviously makes his odds much better.

But here is where the backstage stuff comes into play and the other question I didnt want to throw out until know. The question is do the judges KNOW how the public vote turned out BEFORE the show begins? I cant imagine ABC wants a tie publically broken by one of the officials. If there is a tie I am confident that abc will either try to hide the fact that the head judge broke the tie by simply announcing the winner OR if the judges KNOW who the winner of the public vote is before the show starts they may weigh their votes to avoid the tie. I am guessing that again it will be two dances, one that plays to Kelly's sexy strengths and one the plays to Johns elegance. If they want to give it to Kelly then they could give John lets say a two point win on one dance and Kelly a 3 point win on the second dance.

If the judges know or if there is backstage politics going on Kelly just might win after all. Heres something that may play into it all - Kelly came to the attention of the head of ABC daytime Brian Frons several years ago and Frons basically thinks Kelly walks on water. He cast her on a show called Port Charles where she was one of the leads. First she was a heroine, then she was turned evil by a very hot vampire and became a tortured heroine and then she was split in half so that half of her got to be sweet with her studly hero and half of her got to be a sexy vixen running around with her equally sexy vampire. Crazy but its soaps and believe it or not she was quite good in the part. In fact, I think she was nominated for an emmy one year.

When Port Charles was canceled, Frons rode to Kellys rescue and basically forced the Producers at GH to hire her. At that point Frons wanted to groom her as one, if not THE, leading lady of GH. Unfortunately, the way they wrote her character was terrible. First they tried to do a Pygmallion story -- she fell into bed right away with a very rich playboy who tried to make her into a "lady". It was total dreck and she game across as a slutty cross between Julia Roberts/Pretty woman and Audrey Hepburn/My Fair Lady. Then she was moved into a storyline where she became the pregnant mistress that broke up the soaps most popular couple. By this time you could imagine her popularity level with the fans. Then they had her miscarry (buying some audience sympathy) and finally paired her with someone slowly. Since the miscarriage and repairing she has become more well liked by the fans but I dont think she is at the level the powers that be want her at. From what I read, Frons was the one that pushed Kelly to do Dancing -- I suspect it was too help soften her imagine and I dont think its a coincidence that the promos for Dancing run heavily during GH. As a GH viewer it made me tune in to Dancing, and I have to say while I liked Kelly quite a bit before, I have much more of a favorable opinion of her from this show.

ABC as a network doesnt gain anything from a John O'Hurley win, but a Kelly victory allows them to pimp their winner all over the place as a cross promo for GH.

So I take it back could kelly win, yes. Will John win, probably. Either way I go back to the initial premise. Reading the rules has somewhat tainted the competition angle of the show for me. I think I will watch the dancing and declare them both winners to me!

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Guest ranster627

It was originally a little of both ... now I just have to say wow ... great well presented post!

I am humbled to say "ditto" ... or "what she said" ... thanks Lauren!

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Guest ranster627

Nope, I was a fan of Port Charles and dabble in GH ... so I found it very interesting, and I share your professional background ... I also agree with your "corporate theory" ...

To me it was sincerely interesting and well written!

I also think ABC is very smart using this strategy ...

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i guess as a reality tv fan I get frustrated by the fixes that the put in to make good tv. And the more I see it the more I have to wonder what things I dont see. Is this thing rigged -- the rules are so stupid for Dancing that I have to assume either its designed that way for a purpose or they hired a complete moron to lay out the shows voting format? It could be either but like I said it taints it for me.

Its similiar to when you said why dont we get the week by week numbers from AI after the season is over? There are voting controversies with AI every season and still no numbers are ever produced.

We had the whole issue on Tar about what forms of help to teams were allowable and which forms of help were prohibited.

Last season we had the whole putt dropping issue on BB and CBS didnt even address it, but who won effected the whole rest of the game.

It just seems that every program has some questionable situations that could easily been addressed by making the rules more available and whole heck of a lot less convoluted.

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Guest ranster627

You hit my pet peeve on the head ... I want full disclosure ... by not post the handbooks, or rules and procedures, they can change them or ignore them whenever they want.

It smells and feels dirty!

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But here is where the backstage stuff comes into play and the other question I didnt want to throw out until know.  The question is do the judges KNOW how the public vote turned out BEFORE the show begins?  

I think you know the answer to that!... and it's YES!!! There is no other explanation we all saw what began happening after week one's votes. The judges were OBVIOUS in their plotting to keep Rachel even though she reeeeeaaaaaallllly stunk. Unfortunetely for her... they couldn't keep her around any longer or we would all smell something foul... cause we all saw that awkwardness about her... and we all see it about Kelly too but, she has the soap fan base and Rachel didn't. IMO

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I'm echoing Ranster by saying "wow", what a great conversation the three of you are having here. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I never really questioned the rules to any of these shows until this particular show. The voting rules are lengthy and complicated. Lauren has explained those rules at least 3 or 4 times to me. Finally, I got it. They seem very unfair and like they allow politics to definately play a part in who wins. I think that the judges probably do know who got the public vote before the show starts.

Lauren....that was an A M A Z I N G post. I'm so impressed with everything that you've posted regarding this show (and of course all your posts :D ). Thank you so much for the time you take to share your views with us!! I, for one, really appreciate it. So awesome.

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Thank you Serenity for the kind words.

I think the only thing that doesnt shadow the other shows is that this is ABC. One of the reasons they MAY be more guilty of stupidity than plotting is that they really dont do much reality tv on that network. Yes they have Extreme Makeover and I think one of those nanny shows, but if I am not mistaken thats it.

As for CeCi's thoughts on Rachel, they knew she was in the bottom 2 from the previous week and yes I think that they plotted to keep her based on the previous week. Still doesnt quite prove that the knew the actual results from that week, it just proved that they new that previously she was in danger. What we need to know -- and will almost certainly never know -- at this moment people are voting either for John or for Kelly via internet. Last night people voted for one of the two by phone. On Tuesday, July 5th the phone votes and the internet votes will be added together. On July 6th, when the finale kicks off, will the 3 panelists know for certain whether John or Kelly won the public vote? That would be one strike against the system.

And for me the other is the tie breaker.

Ranster I think we are fighting a losing battle on this one. It seems like every show we watch together you and I both go on and on about how crappy the rules that we DO know about are and how stupidly secretive the networks are about the rules that we DONT know about. Unfortunately, I dont think it will ever change. LONG SIGH :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:

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  • 3 weeks later...
Guest ranster627

FROM TV GUIDE: Ask Matt

Question: Please tell me that you watched the Dancing with the Stars finale and agree with me that the outcome was completely rigged! There is no way that Kelly and Alec performed their freestyle dance better than John and Charlotte. The whole thing reeked of conspiracy to me. Does the fact that Kelly Monaco is the star of one of ABC's soaps have anything to do with this? I was outraged by the outcome.

Matt: My, what heated feelings this harmless little show generated on its final night. Shawna isn't alone. Here's Kathe's irate response: "Did the judges not understand what a 10 stands for? While it's true that she improved greatly during the show, Kelly wasn't a 10 that night nor any other. Everyone I have talked with spotted her missteps (even my nondancing husband), yet the judges didn't appear to see them. I find it interesting

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  • 2 weeks later...

ap_125.jpg

ABC, Actress Answer to 'Dancing' Outcome

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Kelly Monaco and dance partner Alec Mazo lift their

trophy high while Host Tom Bergeron and dancers

applaud their victory.

Kelly Monaco knows there are television viewers who aren't happy she won ABC's "Dancing With the Stars" competition, but she isn't going to let it bother her. "I do not hold anything personally. I'm not going to go home and cry because someone did not like my dancing," the actress from ABC's "General Hospital" said of a viewer backlash.

"I felt from the beginning this is fun for me . . . If you don't like it, you don't like it. I wouldn't be sitting here if the whole world hated what I did," she told the Television Critics Association on July 26. Monaco and the producers of the ABC series were peppered with questions, with some reporters saying they received complaints from viewers who were confused by the voting process that relied on both the audience and judges.

Questions also were raised about possible network favoritism for Monaco. The runner-up was John O'Hurley, who played catalogue king J. Peterman on NBC's "Seinfeld." Judge Len Goodman said the results weren't influenced by the network. "I never knew she was on ABC," he said of Monaco.

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John O'Hurley and Charlotte Jorgensen

The show's controversy even warranted a chunk of space in the recent TV Guide. Amidst several readers letters complaining of the final outcome, John O'Hurley responded, "My middle name is 'You should have won.' Hey, what can you do? We were very disappointed. It was a sad ending to a really phenomenal show, but I still had the time of my life."

Asked about reports that O'Hurley was upset he didn't win, supervising producer Izzie Pick said only that the actor was "obviously disappointed." Pick noted how much time and effort O'Hurley and others put into training and competing.

Monaco received support from judge Carrie Ann Inaba, who said she scored the actress' final dance a "10" because "she did a great performance, she showed us what she had." O'Hurley, on the other hand, played it safe with his routine, Inaba said.

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Kelly Monaco and Alec Mazo perform a sensual

dance routine on 'Dancing With the Stars.'

The celebrity contest has found overwhelming success in the United Kingdom, where it originated, as well as in other countries including Australia, Poland and Denmark, said Paul Telegdy, a BBC executive. "It's a fun, satisfying show that hasn't got a nasty bone in its body," he said. "We're really enjoying the controversy but it baffles us."

The program proved to be an American hit as well, ranking as the most popular summer series since the first "Survivor" on CBS in 2000, according to Nielsen Media Research. It will be returning at midseason and changes are under consideration, said Pick, who was vague on details.

Earlier Tuesday at the critics' meeting, ABC Entertainment President Stephen McPherson was grilled about Monaco's victory and viewer perceptions of possible ABC influence. "Do I understand it? I guess I understand that people are going to have strong preferences. I love that people are so wrapped up in the show," he said.

He suggested the possibility of a "dance-off" between Monaco and O'Hurley. When a reporter asked Monaco about it later, she replied: "Bring it on. You want a dance-off, come on up here. I'll give you a dance-off."

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I guess the reporters have forgotten that Kelly ALSO won the popular vote.

I really liked John but I dont think he is being very gracious in defeat. Poor sportsmanship in my book. Even if he feels that way he shouldnt be saying that to reporters.

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Guest ranster627

FROM TV GUIDE: Ask Matt

Question: As to the recent question about Dancing with the Stars being rigged, I don't suspect that of the overall results, but think possibly the judges' scores were. If I understood the rules correctly, the results were based on how you ranked in the voting plus how you ranked with the judges. The key is that in case of a tie, the winner would be the one with the higher voter rating. So whoever had more votes from the week before (probably Kelly) would win the competition regardless of how well or poorly they danced the night of the competition. Do I have the rules right? The judges may have tried to make their scores match the (already determined) conclusion. Hopefully the next version will correct this.

Matt Roush: I haven't talked to ABC about it, but a source at BBC (where Stars originated) assured me recently that this vote wasn't fixed, and that regardless of what the judges did on the final night, Kelly was already the runaway winner. If that had an impact on the judges giving her a perfect score for her less-than-perfect freestyle dance, I can't say. Maybe they thought it made for better TV that way. But from everything I've heard and read, the result would have been the same. A result, I might add, that pretty much amounts to a hill of beans from where I sit.

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