Let me clear up "lying" in Big Brother once and for all

[chichi]

"And while I don't tell a mother her baby is "cute" if I don't think s/he is (but then I don't think "cute" is such a big deal anyway - and even if it were it's genetic so no credit should be assigned for it) I WILL say the baby is "adorable" (they're all able to be adored) if I feel it. But mostly I interact with the baby and then comment on her/his reactions and what that may imply about how s/he is perceiving/processing the interaction. My perception is that mothers usually seem to find that feedback more interesting than boilerplate praise."

Do they tell you that? And if they do, are they telling the truth? Or are they simply withholding their comments as you do? Maybe they are just sparing your feelings?

"As for lying "to protect someone else's feelings" I don't believe that that's ethical: some family members might choose not to tell an old or young one what the M.D. told them about the prognosis."

What is and isn't ethical is a matter of interpretation, if one considered me saying a baby is cute, tantamount to withholding medical information, I'd ask them to take the diligence they practice in reference to ethical speech, and apply it to reading comprehension.

"If you're lying about objective facts you give the other person a false map which keeps them from acting they way they would if they knew the truth. If you lie about your thoughts or feelings, the thoughts/feelings will still be ther and they WILL show in one way or another and produce a confusion in the person you lied to because "the pieces won't fit together.""

You're forgetting one thing. For ANY words to have meaning, the person they were addressed to, would have to consider the source, one of merit.

"I'm tired of all these PC limitations on expression. The fact that someone may be offended by what I say is NOT more important in a free society than my right to say it!"

I'd rather be kind than right, you make your own decisions and deal with the consequences. I'll do the same.

"As for "Do these pants make me look fat?" the factual answer is often "No, they don't, you ARE fat.""

I suspect you won't ever find yourself in this situation. That's not a fact or an opinion.....just a hunch.

[BBNut]

"There's no I in Team!!" -Jinx

But there is a ME!

Can't spell suck without u! hahaha (not directed at anyone, just love that phrase)

""I'm tired of all these PC limitations on expression. The fact that someone may be offended by what I say is NOT more important in a free society than my right to say it!"

I'd rather be kind than right, you make your own decisions and deal with the consequences. I'll do the same.

"As for "Do these pants make me look fat?" the factual answer is often "No, they don't, you ARE fat.""

I suspect you won't ever find yourself in this situation. That's not a fact or an opinion.....just a hunch."

I think the issue is not lying in these cases, but compassion. The fact that someone may be offended is not more important than the right to say it, but the fact that someone may be hurt by it may be the very reason not to say it. I ran into this very issue today. Your right end when you begin to hurt other people.

When do you stop being honest and start thinking about the human on the other side? I'm not saying lying is right, but sometimes not telling the truth is the way to go.

As for the Do these pants make me look fat? Sometimes a "They look good on you" work in both regards.

There's a grey area for every moral line... spys have lied to save their lives and that of many others. Where they wrong?

[samg]

My perception that mothers enjoy my feedback is based on the frequency with which they ask further questions about what I say, and on the number who then ask questions about how a child the age of their baby "thinks" or "what he understands" (much of my training is in cognitive development.) On one occasion a woman ahead of me on a supermarket line, whose baby-in-a-car-seat I was playing "peek-a-boo" with while she checked out, waited for the cashier to ring my order so she could continue talking with me as we walked out to the parking lot.

And of course the spy lying to save her/his life isn't wrong (in my ethical system; we note that all "right" and "wrong" labels are meaningful only in the context of a value system) because anything said under threat isn't valid (even the law recognizes that, by invalidating contracts signed under coercion.) And preserving life is a "higher value" in most ethical systems than "speaking truth."

As for lying "to protect someone else's feelings" I don't believe that that's ethical:

if one considered me saying a baby is cute, tantamount to withholding medical information, I'd ask them to take the diligence they practice in reference to ethical speech, and apply it to reading comprehension.

My example from which the first quote was taken spoke ONLY to the quoted criterion ("protecting feelings") raised by another poster. One standard method of proving something false is reductio ad absurdum, created by applying the hypothesis to a boundary condition (i.e., "an extreme case"), and the example I used seems to me to prove the lack of validity of the criterion under discussion (although I know that there are those who would argue that not telling someone that the doctor gave them a "terminal" prognosis is the "right" thing to do; but since respect for each individual's right to know the facts and to choose what s/he wants to do based on those facts are a strong part of my value system, it's not "right" for me.)

As for the "fat" joke, I've said it only twice, and both recipients heard it as it was intended and laughed. (In part because they know that "You are fat" is something I can't say and mean, so it must be meant as a joke, since "fat" (used as an adjective) is never a report: it's at least "an inference" and, if connotation is implied, "a judgment." For example, I don't say "this is delicious," because that's a judgment - the subject of the sentence, "This", is NOT what the sentence is about: the word "delicious" points at a perception in my mind and so to be accurate the subject of the sentence must be "I" (you may have heard of psychology's recommending the use of "I-sentences" when communicating feelings; that's a corollary to what I'm writing about here.) And I wouldn't say (of the pants) "they look good on you"; if I liked the way the person looked (TO ME) in them I would say "I like the way you look in them" because, again, "looking good" is not about the pants, it's about a perception in my mind (as is demonstrated by the fact that someone else may think she does NOT look good in them.) Many posters real-ize this concept by adding "imho" or "jmo" after they have stated something subjectively. My personal prefernce is to try to state it objectively in the first place. For example I prefer "I am not attracted by your appearance" to "You're ugly," and changing the latter to "In my opinion you're ugly" doesn't seem to me to make it much better.

Note that speaking this way eliminates LOTS of "arguments"/discussions people have about whether someone is "good" or "nice" or "attractive" or "entertaining" or any of many other adjectives: "It's great!"-"No, it's awful." is grounds for such a discussion, since there is obviously a contradiction there - "it" can't be both "great" and "awful". But "I like it."-"I dislike it." eliminates the contradiction, and if further discussion is warranted leads to more meaningful consideration of WHY I like it and why the other does not (rather than arguments about the thing itself, as though there were something objectively "great" or "awful" IN the thing itself.) I like accurate maps.

Regarding "kind" versus honest, if one speaks in "reports" (objectively) that seldom comes into play. But again, if a person to whom I choose to express MY thoughts or feelings AS my thoughts or feelings is offended by my having those thoughts or feelngs, there's probably not a lot of room for us to relate meaningfully.

In my experience those who choose to lie to "their friends" to "spare their feelings" are often rationalizing (the non-conscious mind is VERY powerful and they won't know it if that's what they're doing) their lying when the true motive is to preserve the other person's positive perception of them (cf. a teenager lying to her/his parents about behaviors of which they know the parent wouldn't approve, "to spare the parent's feelings.") Lying to others is a slippery slope which in my experience almost inevitably leads to lying to oneself.

But I'm intrigued by the number of posters who seemed to react negatively to the idea that some people try to be completely honest (which, again, certainly does NOT mean saying every "negative" thing one is thinking.) I suspect that in many cases those "feelings" are really a reaction to their awareness of how often they say things they know to be untrue. (I see very similar reactions from carnivores when the subject of vegetarianism arises, which is why I very seldom introduce the subjects of "killing" or "lying"; but when there's a thread about one of those topics on a public forum I feel free to express my beliefs. That reminds me: Patanjali's Yoga Aphorisms tells us that the first step toward enlightenment is self-purification (yama), and that self-purification consists of five abstinences, including "non-killing, non-stealing, non-lying and non-giving-and-receiving of gifts." And Castaneda's Don Juan taught that the first step on the path to becoming a warrior is to "be impeccable in your speech." Do you remember how Kane spoke, on "Kung Fu"?

But please understand, I'm not saying that anyone else "should" (that word has a specific objective meaning too - see Beyond Freedom and Dignity, by Skinner) do what I do, only that I do it and feel certain that there are others who do as well (e.g., those who choose a cloistered life, like monks and nuns.)

I am sincerely sorry if anyone is offended by the idea that there are people who strive to be completely honest. But I won't reply to any more objections to the policy; if as I suspect they are motivated by non-conscious awareness of one's own lack of concern with honesty, nothing I write is likely to be of much use. (And I don't judge those who ignore these values, honestly. But I do reserve the right to choose with whom I spend my time, as does everyone else; it's just that my criteria (see Psalm 1) are somewhat different than many others'.)

But if anyone is interested in learning more about "how to speak the truth", PM me and I'll try to find a link to send you to an article about Hayakawa's "Reports, Inferences and Judgments". If not, I sincerely hope that no one was too distressed by the idea that it is possible to be more honest.

Peace,

Shalom,

Love-I,

Namaste

[EEonBB]

Samg,

Your post #19 (and the one above) is phenomenal! I studied Psych for years in college because I'm facinated with how the human mind works. I must say.......you are right on target with everything you said. Most people can't/don't see how to recognize how/why people do what they do because they haven't been trained to. Human behavior is the most facinating thing on earth to me. I really enjoyed your posts!

[SamTheCat]

Holy shmokes! Will have to add samg's post to my list of books I've been meaning to read

Just from skimming it though, if you don't mind me being honest for the sake of enlightenment, it's just my opinion but I think you overvalue thoughts and undervalue feelings . . . something seems to be missing from your analysis (jmo though, and nothing personal against you so I hope you don't take my comment as offensive )

[word_girl]

This is off-topic, but I have to say just the mention of Carlos Castaneda spun me 20 years back to my post-college days of obsessively trying to understand the understandable. I just googled him to see if he had published additional works past the first 9 that I read and found that he died in 1998. The timing, of course, makes me wonder of my own state at that moment - did I somehow recognize the loss?

As to this topic, I've of course found it interesting and compelling. I don't believe in a subjective truth unless true unattachment is achieved, which is rare unless you're fasting on a mountain. I do believe that we can tap into a basic awareness easily enough to know we are biased and it's that bias that we use to create our own reality.

[Xal]

Seriously dude step away from the computer..>>

Says the person with almost 1600 posts.

Since when was having integrity a bad thing? Oh yeah, since around the baby boom.

[fizzle]

ok since we are being honest here...

i come here to read and write short post regarding BB... hardly ever do i pause to read some long winded mumble jumble. A simple 1 to 6 sentence post with a or or or even a is preferred.

now, i am not saying you cant write a book here, but i am saying that your baby is ugly and you are fat and i dont like stumbling apon a novel here. it throws me all out of wack. if i wanted to read that much i would go to barnes and noble.

Edited: to say i really dont think your baby is ugly or that you are fat.

[Catwishes]

I'm with you Fizzle.

Samg, all I can say to you is how does your psyche feel (without all the footnotes and references)?

It must be hard to justify your feelings without going back and referencing all the books you've read and different philosophies you've studied. I'm not being critical, just making an observation. You seem to be very intelligent, educated and well read, however, lighten up~!

[Flo]

Wonderful posts samg!

The best I have read!

Skimming through them just won't cut it!

[Marty]

I love this topic full of introspective thought. I think the people I have closest to me in my life are people with integrity and honesty. I try to be honest but to be really honest I fail sometimes. I may feel like crap and someone asks me how I feel and I say OK. It just comes out of my mouth. I may tell a co-worker something not quite the truth as not to hurt their feelings. It is hard to be 100% honest. I do try though.

I have wondered about the people that watch Big Brother and tried to figure out why I am so fascinated with people that play this bizarre game. I am truly fascinated with they psychology of the person. Like watching little lab rats and trying to figure out why they do what they do. I do find myself getting emotionally invested in them also. I cried with Janie when she cried. Big Brother is my secret from some people. I don't think they understand why I have the feeds and enjoy the show. MY BIGGEST LIE is that I have a boyfriend (I am a female) of the last 9 years. I have barely mentioned that I watch Big Brother. (He has said he thinks it is a stupid show) He does not know I have the live feeds. He lives 80 miles from me and we used to spend almost every weekend together. This summer he is having a lot of work done on his house and it has helped me have an excuse to spend most of my weekends at my home watching the feeds. I have told him I have been busy doing stuff around the house also. Yes I have been doing home repairs and yard work but my lie is I am spending most all my time on the feeds. So I think I have lied to him by admission. This is from a person that hates lying.

That being said is I love these posts by such smart intelligent people. It is nice to have some thought in the game and not just one liners on the posts.

[wolverine43]

Jinx Yesterday, 06:56 PM

There's no I in Team!!

Well there's no WE in team either.

[BBNut]

Sam the Cat said basically what I was thinking.

Technically, the statements made by Samg are correct.

The problem is this really isn't a technical discussion. I'd rather my friends think with their hearts and screw up every now and then than think with their heads and books and technically never tell me a lie.

I think the posters here are negative about being 100% honest because it isn't realistic. Maybe by textbooks and studies they are. To claim, someone as a person are perfect (even in this regard alone) seems a little out there. (for the record that was not directed at anyone)

I try to be honest. I do my best. At the very least I go to sleep at the end of the day knowing that I did my best. At the end of a tough day or after a rough breakup, I always tell myself that everything is going to be alright even if I think it's a lie. I sleep well.

[vrunca]

The only thing that upsets me about the lying and sneaky acting and just bad behavior is that a lot of kids watch this show. They shouldn't, but they do, this and Survivor. I work with youth and families actually make this their family activity on nights that it is on !! My daughter and I do watch it, but she is 20, not 11 or 12!

Buuuuut...if you tell someone that you are going to be lying to them constantly, and wear a shirt that even says "I am probably lying", and you give everyone the chance to know that you are lying....and then go ahead and lie to them.....is it really a lie? Doesn't that kind of cancel out the lie part of it?

[Ron]

Sorry, Marty. I didn't equate the name Marty with a lady.

Anyway, Marty, Marty, Marty --- how do you really feel about James --- now don't be shy and come right out with it. Well as much as you, ahem, "dislike" James I would much rather deal with an outspoken, foul mouthed whiner (at least you know where you stand) than with the subterfuge and underhanded sneekiness, lying and cheating used by a person like Dr. Dispicable. You never know where he stands, what he believes in or if there is any validity in what he says. In comparison to that James is just a foul mouthed, immature brat whereas Will is truly the enemy that destroys people from inside out...vicious and deadly.

I would take James over Will at any time and for any reason.

[GingerSnaps]

James was a favorite of mine going in this season......he gets tired so fast. His lying I can deal with - his whining is extremely annoying. James is a little girl trapped inside a "big headed" man's body.

As for Will - though I am not all "gaga" over his looks at least the guy is entertaining...and though he's into serious game play he not so all that serious about it.

Either way...they are both liars ----but it is always the better liar who can win BB.

[Marty]

OK we are down to the final 4. It really really bothers me that the lies are just as thick and just as deep as before. I have been watching this game this year waiting for the time for people to just stop with the lies and get on with the battle.

The lies that Mike and Boogie are nothing more then a preditor would lie to get what he wants. I am so sorry that Janelle found this her only way to get to the end.

The comments that Will threw out to the internet about how Janelle is ruining his life and he really loves his girlfriend. That was the last straw.

I would much rather see a real game of skill and not just manipulative skill. To me this has been the worst BB game ever. I was so excited about this year but really let down. Now we have Erika that may be crowned the Big Brother All Star winner. (scarey)

[bearpawz]

These HG's have all been on the show before and I would hope that anyone who wants to be on the show would have at least watched it.

Wouldn't you think if their morals were above the game they shouldn't be there or in our case watch the show?

At times I feel like I'm digusted by what people become but then another part of me says, hell it's a game in which everyone knows the rules.

I compare it to some video games......there are some real moral debates there but knowing the difference between reality and fiction is the key.

Doesn't make lying right but we all have the option of shutting the tv or computer off.

Who knows how we'd feel about these people or how they'd act if we met them outside the game

[Rejuvenated]

Doesn't make lying right but we all have the option of shutting the tv or computer off

I agree, but I also think there is a fine line between lying for the game play and lying to the point Will has. He has taken lying to effect someones emotions beyond game play.