Xal Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 I hope no mods merge this because this is a debateable topic all on its own. The one thing we probably hear in these forums more than anything else is "lying is part of the game and completely ok". Lets examine this for a moment. I think we can all agree lying and cheat are bad things. Now think about this for a moment. BB is a game. Basketball is a game. Monopoly is a game. You can say the jump shot is part of basketball just like lying is part of BB. You can say negotiating is an important part of Monopoly just like lying is an important part of BB. HOWEVER, and this is a HUGE caveat, negotiating, shooting baskets, batting a baesball, catching a football....none of these things in and of themselves are bad. Lying is. The thing people need to remember is many people do not lie all the time in BB. Many people try to NEVER lie in BB. This goes for any reality show, Survivor included. The question a person needs to ask themselves when they go into something like this is if their personal integrity and morals are worth more than the money. Can you look another grown man in the eye and lie directly to his face, something that is most assuredly NOT a manly thing to do, game or no. The simple fact lying is never a good thing to do, especially constantly. This applies to everything including BB. Just because it's a game doesn't mean the lie is no longer a lie. A comparison would be the bean ball in baseball. Most people in baseball agree it's not a good thing to do but it's still part of the game. Just because you enter into a game with other human beings doesn't mean the laws of humanity are chucked out the window. Go ahead and lie but saying "it's part of the game" doesn't make it any better. I'm sure if it makes you feel better about yourself to say that then more power to you but a lie is a lie is a lie. You are still intentionally misleading someone to provide yourself with an advantage. Some people can do it freely and easily, some can't or won't. I respect those who won't a lot more than those who do. It really saddens me that so many people applaud the liars to be honest. Then again, that just shows how messed up society is nowadays. We are the reality show society who gets off on watching other people treat each other like dogs. I admit I watch many reality shows too but I always pull for the people who try not to lie and try to maintain some semblance of dignity while playing. You CAN win in reality shows by playing a fairly clean game. The firefighter on Survivor did it two years ago after all. In conclusion I guess I could basically sum it up like this. Lying in BB is a choice. No one forces you to lie in BB. It's only one part of the game yet some people seem to think it's the only part of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCRebel Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Just as in basketball sometimes you gotta fake right and then go left or in football you gotta fake run and pass, in Big Brother sometimes you gotta fake one way and go the other. Big Brother, Survivor, and other shows like that call on players to lie at certain times. It'd be nice to go the whole game without lying and still win- but that's near impossible. You mentioned when Tom won Survivor without lying. Consider though, that Tom was never in a vulnerable position. His tribe won every single immunity challenge, he had a loyal and majority alliance and was running the show. He won so many individual immunities that lying didn't really fit into his strategy. When someone just has complete control over the other people and the game the way Tom did, he could figure he'd do better in a jury vote by being upfront and honest. However, compare that situation to Chris from Survivor Vanuatu. He was basically screwed being the only guy against a strong and tight six-person women's alliance in the final seven. If he hadn't lied and convinced everyone he was on their side he would have been voted off. Do you think any player should have to just take getting voted off unless they win immunity and not fight back at all? I don't and feel he did the correct thing by manipulating everybody. Imagine if say in the final five if when Julie and Eliza wanted to vote Twila off and Twila and Scout wanted to vote Julie off if Chris had gone up to Julie when she asked about his vote and said "I'm sorry, but I have to vote you off." Do you think Julie would then try to convince Scout to vote Twila off? No, she would have tried to talk Twila and Scout into voting off Chris to fulfill the women's original goal of an all-female final four. So Chris made the right call by continuing to lie to Julie and then vote her off. Bottom line, unless you get really lucky you have to lie to win, you know that when you sign up for the game. If you have a problem with it maybe your problem isn't with dishonesty but the game itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityKari Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 I agree and I think it's neccessary to lie in BB and also Survivor. I have watched every season of these two shows and I absolutely love them. Sometimes my favorite players are lied to but I realize it's part of the game. In my opinion it's needed for strategy and if people all went there and didn't lie, it'd really make for some boring T.V. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lianna Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Ummmmm...BB is a reality show, not a sport. Both have a set of rules, but in BB there is no rule that says lying is not allowed. What is the big deal? They do whatever it takes. I cant believe I read that entire "dissertation", found it to be nonsense.......and still felt the need to reply. LMAO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Good post Xal and I agree with you on your observations. I was thinking about that today. I don't like lying and don't ever do it myself. I was wondering why I sorta liked Will and I very much disliked James. I think the comedy that Will brings to the game is wonderful. I don't like his lying either but the difference is that he never makes it vicious and personal. James was the decietful liar that called Janelle a whore, bitch and said he would dance on her grave while he pretended to be her friend. That is the worst type of person I can think of. He was very hateful. Will lies and says he lies and still he charms people. I would love to see the game played a little differently. I liked last year when the sides where chosen and it was just a battle of sides. There was not so much lying. That is just me. I do watch the show because the people intrigue me. The game play intrigues me. They lying I don't like. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEonBB Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Basketball and baseball are team sports. BB is not. BB gives the public what they want. Lies, deceit, back stabing, etc. If there were no market for it, BB wouldn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoneJones00 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Good post Xal and I agree with you on your observations. I was thinking about that today. I don't like lying and don't ever do it myself. I was wondering why I sorta liked Will and I very much disliked James. I think the comedy that Will brings to the game is wonderful. I don't like his lying either but the difference is that he never makes it vicious and personal. James was the decietful liar that called Janelle a whore, bitch and said he would dance on her grave while he pretended to be her friend. That is the worst type of person I can think of. He was very hateful. Will lies and says he lies and still he charms people. I would love to see the game played a little differently. I liked last year when the sides where chosen and it was just a battle of sides. There was not so much lying. That is just me. I do watch the show because the people intrigue me. The game play intrigues me. They lying I don't like. JMO I like to root for the underdog and the least mean person. So does most of America. Aside from that, if one has to lie but they can do it without being malicious, then I root for them. I root for Janelle because she has been the underdog most of this and all of last year (and I won't argue that with anyone so don't bother.) I am also rooting for Will. I hated him at first but then he grew on me and I would love to see a Will/Janelle final two but its not likely, I think it will end up being Boogie/Erika which is a horrible combo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadMidgetWalking Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Will is the biggest liar in the house, BUT it's not fueled by constant hatred of other HG's, ala Maggot, James, etc. I have no problem with the way Will is playing the game, even though I'm still pulling for Jan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheri Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 There's no I in Team!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamTheCat Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Haven't really had a chance to stop and reflect on everybody's posts since this is such a deep subject but this is what comes to mind from first glance at the topic: What's tough to watch for me with respect to lying in BB is when people aren't on equal playing field with regards to their comfort level with lies and their ability to discern them in others because then it gives the liar and advantage over the other person that inevitably ends up with one person feeling betrayed and duped by the breach of trust. Will wooing Janelle with all the fairy tales and then playing a part in getting her sov entire alliance evicted. Not so cool. Danielle telling Marcellas not to use the veto on himself so he can be evicted. Not so cool. Will and Boogie telling James LOD is tight and then voting him out - hard to watch but more in the league of fair game since they all agree that lying okay in BB. You see the difference in the way they respond to getting duped too - Marcellas was wandering around in a stupor and has apparently been left scarred from the incident, whereas James gave kudos to Will for outwitting him. I guess I don't like to see people taken advantage of and hurt because of somebody else's lies even if there are no rules against it PS Also what's troubled me about this show lately is that Will is considered the best player of all-time because he is so manipulative and such a good liar, but then you take a look at how he's used these skills out in the real world and he told that story of him embezzling money from the movie theater he was working at before college with that ticket manipulation scheme and it makes me stop and think about what exactly this show is rewarding . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarman12 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Lieing is within the rules in Big Brother. Spitballs , razors in a pitchers glove and even flapping sleeves are against the rules in baseball. Football players are penalized for infractions of the rules. Hockey players are given individual penalties. Very little in BB is against the rules except for physical violence and cheating during competitions. There are supposedly penalty nominations for repeated infractions of rules during the live feeds but I've never seen one given. Xal. your point is well taken, but since it's basically an anything goes game with a half million dollars at stake people are "allowed" to leave their ethical compass at the door. And since everybody knows that they will be lied to at some point in the house it becomes more a game of "who can you trust" and how well you can read people than it is a contest on how well you can answer trivia questions and endure in endurance competitions. Reading who is lieing and who is being honest with you is actually an important part of the game. So no contestant that is familiar with the show is at a disadvantage with the lieing. If they can't see through it, they're probably gonna go home. I guess that's why I'm ok with the lieing, and why I wish Janelle, for instance, would do a little more of it. It would even the playing field for her. Then again, the fact that she tries not to play that way is one of the reasons I like her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerSnaps Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Quote the topic starter: "lying is part of the game and completely ok". Yes, I agree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samg Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 The comparison should be NOT to the sports listed but to the game (name?) where you try to get rid of all your cards by putting down some number of them face down and saying "three 9's" (or whatever) and the other player CAN challenge, turn your cards over, and then either you pick them up if you were lying or he picks them up if you were not. THAT game can be played without lying, but it's to your advantage to lie, and everyone knows that before they start playing the game. The difference in BB is that the lies are about the other players, not about cards, and SOMETIMES the lies become personal (as when one party believes a showmance is real.) So I distinguish between those two kinds of lies. But I still fantasize about a HG who says on the first night: "I'm going to play without lying and without breaking any promises I make. I want you to CALL me on it publicly if you ever think I've violated these rules - even if you think I've made two deals which, even though I haven't broken either one yet, can't both be kept, like promising two different players to take them to F2, and I'm going to call each of you out publicly any time one of you tells me something that contradicts something someone else has told me, or any time you break a promise to me. "I'll make ONLY deals that I am prepared to keep, and I won't deal with anyone who I believe has lied to me." THAT would be interesting (provided the HG had some game, both socially and in comps.) But I recognize that it's just a fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anjel Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 the name of that game is bull shit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samg Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 the name of that game is bull shit but I thought Will didn't know any card games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chichi Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 As human beings, we all lie, every single one of us. We just justify it to ourselves. It's just that we all have differing opinions or defifnitions, of what a justifiable lie is. For instance, have you ever told a new mother her baby is adorable? A 3 year old, they are a great singer? Ever uttered the words..... Size doesn't matter? . I will lie to protect hearts and egos, to me that is justifiable. Perhaps to others 500,00 bucks constitutes a justifiable lie. They do what they have to do. ETA If a girl asks "Do I look fat in these pants?" You had BETTER lie if she does! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fait Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 funny as I was reading the posts I was thinking of the card game bullsh*t. Perfect comparison. It's a game of lying and everyone knows it. I have no problem with contestants trying to 'fake' eachother out as far as who they are truly alligned with etc. I do however, have an issue with the personal attacks and hateful type lies. There is no need to use those tactics to win and just show those people up to be weak and without personal character. (james). I started out prepared to dislike Will because of his reputation for lying ( I have not seen his season) but I have grown to like him cuz he only seems to lie within the context of the game and doesn't take it to a personal level as far as I have seen. I like Janelle as well because I think she truly try to stay alligned with her 'chosen' ones. She has been personal in the past, but under severe distress and no where near as hatefully as others. Too bad she is a little too 'single minded'. Maybe if she could've seen around her alliance to James and even Marcellas she might've alligned with Danielle and that would have been cool. This Will/Janelle thing is pretty good too. I hope we find out in the end who really played who or if there was some truth to their pairing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nursie Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 i hope for once, when someone on the jury blasts one of the final two with 'You LIED to me, LIED to my face!', that the final two hg will respond with : 'no shit sherlock'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samg Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 For the record, there are some of us who have worked consciously at NOT lying. I've spent time reading and thinking about language and semantics and have worked diligently at speaking the truth all the time (I don't always succeed, but usually when I don't I catch it and admit it.) Friends laugh at me when I call and tell them that I misspoke in our conversation on the previous day, that something I believed to be true turned out not to be, and I'm calling to correct what I said. I'm similarly concerned with being as good as my word, so I rarely say that "I will" do something, saying instead that "I plan to" or "I expect to". Together those two properties seem to me to be the meaning of "integrity". When I was with the Rasta in Negril, before putting the chalice to their mouths many of them said "May the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart be acceptable in Thy sight." "Right speech" is part of the Buddhist eightfold-path (which is the Fourth Noble Truth.) And I've been aware of the psalm passage "What shall be given to thee, thou false tongue? Sharp arrows of The Mighty, and coals of Juniper" since I was in grammar school. I get bugged when someone says "just a second" because I know it's not true. When I'm talking to someone in a financial institution on the telephone and they ask me to "verify" my address (or SS# or whatever) I tell them okay, read it to me and I'll verify it, I'll tell you whether it's correct or not. I WANT to make them SAY "Tell me your number." Our language is a MAP we use to direct our behavior in the physical world (which is why statements like "so-and-so is bad" are used to justify anything we do to that person - cf. Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, CIA "black sites", etc.) If our map is inaccurate, if our words do not accurately reflect reality, then our thoughts, feelings and behaviors will all be less positive and less efficient than they could be. 'You must learn to say what you mean.' said Humpty Dumpty (I think, but it might be the Mad Hatter.) 'I do,' said Alice, 'or at least I mean what I say! And that's the same thing, isn't it?' 'No,' said Humpty Dumpty(?), 'that's not the same thing at all.' And while I don't tell a mother her baby is "cute" if I don't think s/he is (but then I don't think "cute" is such a big deal anyway - and even if it were it's genetic so no credit should be assigned for it) I WILL say the baby is "adorable" (they're all able to be adored) if I feel it. But mostly I interact with the baby and then comment on her/his reactions and what that may imply about how s/he is perceiving/processing the interaction. My perception is that mothers usually seem to find that feedback more interesting than boilerplate praise. As Brando says in The Freshman (paraphrasing): 'By definition, every word I say is my word.' That is, I don't have to say "I promise" to give someone my word: anything I say is my word, and either it's good or it isn't. And I doubt that I'm the only one on the planet who takes that kind of care with their speech. But I recognize that most people probably don't find it important enough to think about that much. As for lying "to protect someone else's feelings" I don't believe that that's ethical: some family members might choose not to tell an old or young one what the M.D. told them about the prognosis. If you're lying about objective facts you give the other person a false map which keeps them from acting they way they would if they knew the truth. If you lie about your thoughts or feelings, the thoughts/feelings will still be ther and they WILL show in one way or another and produce a confusion in the person you lied to because "the pieces won't fit together." I take responsibility for my feelings and opinions, although I reserve the right not to express them. When I do, since I've stated them AS MY thoughts and/or feelings, if someone is offended it's by what's going on inside me naturally. I'm tired of all these PC limitations on expression. The fact that someone may be offended by what I say is NOT more important in a free society than my right to say it! As for "Do these pants make me look fat?" the factual answer is often "No, they don't, you ARE fat." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 In his post Marty said: "I think the comedy that Will brings to the game is wonderful. I don't like his lying either but the difference is that he never makes it vicious and personal." I disagree. Just because Will is personable and charming dosen't make his lying any less serious. It actually makes him and his attacks all the more vicious and personal. He means to lie, manipulate, cheat and decieve everyone in the house (he has made a fool out of Janelle and will probably stab his stupid sidekick, Booger, in the back sooner or later). Although I have no way of knowing for sure, but, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he treated people like that outside of the house as well. He certainly seems to be enjoying himself and has no regrets and no remorse and the only emotions he has are fake ones. After all, vicious lies and personal attacks, no matter how softly and charmingly presented, are still dispicable. I would love to see Will and C.G. at the end and have C.G. win. The look of shock on Will's face would make suffering through this entire long and boring season worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cindyannie Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 Seriously dude step away from the computer.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 Excuse me Ron: Has Will ever called the woman bitches, sluts, cunts and whores? James has done all that and at the same time pretended to be their friends. To me that gives James a place in Hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamTheCat Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 As for "Do these pants make me look fat?" the factual answer is often "No, they don't, you ARE fat." Ouch! Do you seriously say that to people!?! How does that work for you in life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 Oh and Ron I am a she not a he. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 I lie everyday when I wake up and tell myself I'm going to take over the world. Squirrels end up taking me over and I just feed them more and more. Gotta love em, no regrets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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