Pope John Paul II

[unknown08]

Me and my aunt were the talking about the age limits of becoming Pope.

Do you know what they are?

[Guest ranster627]

Me and my aunt were the talking about the age limits of becoming Pope.

Do you know what they are?

For sure no one over 80 anymore (they may not even vote) ...

Technically, any "confirmed" Catholic male could be Pope. Confirmation is at age 13/14. As the tradition is to select the next Pope from Cardinals, and as Cardinals come from the process ... Priest first and so on ... you could say no one younger than 40 ...

There has been speculation however that someone outside of the Cardinals may be considered ...

Hope some of that helps ...

[unknown08]

Thanks

[Guest ranster627]

Further information (speculation may be more accurate):

It is believed the funeral of the Pope will be held Thursday, but this is coming from media and has not come from the Vatican yet.

It is EXPECTED that the President and other world leaders will attend. It is traditional that no lower representation go excepting extraordinary circumstances.

Be prepared for ritual, and almost medieval cxeremony as there are long traditions held by the Vatican and the process is precisely followed.

If anyone gets firm confirmation of the funeral date, and the beginning of the conclave ... please post it on this thread!

[Guest Anonymous]

From what I've heard the conclave will probably begin immediately after the funeral. I've heard Thursday for the funeral as well. That would mean the conclave will begin on Friday.

The remaining cardinals are expected to arrive in Rome by late Monday as some of them are remaining in their area for special services on Sunday and will depart immediately afterwards.

[Guest GaYToR]

So many new stories are circulating due to our age of instant gratification and the assumed need for each network to beat the others to the latest news. As I understand it, while most likely the funeral will be on Thursday, and the Holy Father's body will lie in state no earlier than Monday afternoon (Rome time), that is all that is certain for now.

As for the conclave, there is an offical 15 days of mourning before the conclave can begin. While the Vatican does it's best to keep the voting from becoming political, that 15 days of mourning gives time for some lobbying to take place. It's sad that such a solemn ritual as the chosing of the next Pope can be influenced by such lobbying, but in today's world, I guess nothing is truly sacred.

[Guest ranster627]

That is right GaYToR ... 15 days after ...

It is a long held tradition ...

Turns out that only two or three of the Cardinals able to vote have been in conclave before, and Pope John Paul II made some rule changes as described earlier, so probably will take a few days before they understand what they are doing.

[Guest Anonymous]

Perhaps they are meeting on Friday to learn the changes that have been made. The report I heard is "the conclave members will meet on Friday".

You're right that there seems to be a lot of conflicting reports. I think that the mourning period begins as of today -- and the conclave itself begins in a couple weeks but they are meeting Friday? Its hard to figure out exactly what's happening.

[salter-path]

Pope's Body Lies in State at Vatican

By DANIELA PETROFF

Associated Press Writer

VATICAN CITY (AP) -- Pope John Paul II's body lay in state at the Vatican's Apostolic Palace on Sunday, and Vatican television showed the pope's remains clad in crimson vestments, his head covered with a white bishop's miter. The powerful images gave the world its first glimpse of the late pontiff since his last public appearance Wednesday. John Paul died Saturday evening at 84 after suffering heart and kidney failure following two hospitalizations in as many months. The Vatican released the pontiff's official death certificate Sunday, saying he died of septic shock and an irreversible cardio-circulatory collapse and listing the ailments he suffered from, including acknowledging officially that the pope had Parkinson's disease.

In the Apostolic Palace's Clementine Hall, two Swiss guards stood at attention on either side of the pope's body, which was placed in front of a fireplace adorned with the Vatican coat of arms, a crucifix standing to one side and an ornate candle burning on the other. John Paul's head rested on several golden pillows, and a rosary was placed in his folded hands. His pastoral staff was tucked under his left arm. His feet were clad in soft brown leather shoes - the same kind of shoes he almost always wore even in major ceremonies. The Clementine Hall is a large, 17th-century salon covered by frescoes and located near the papal apartment where John Paul died. He often used the hall for audiences with world leaders. A colossal chandelier with a green patina hangs from the center of the rounded ceiling, which includes images of angels reaching for the Holy Spirit represented as a white dove.

Prelates and Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi were among those who stood in line to pay their respects. John Paul's longtime personal secretary, Archbishop Stanislaw Dziwisz, sat in prayer in a pew and then greeted prelates and dignitaries. At times he was seen wiping tears from his eyes.

The top Vatican officials in attendance included the close papal aide Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, American Cardinal Edmund Szoka, Polish nuns and the pontiff's personal doctor. Cardinal Camillo Ruini, the late pope's vicar for Rome, prayed on his knees by the pope's body. The Vatican Swiss Guards also lined up to pay their respects, removing their plumed helmets before kneeling and praying before the pope's body.

A message and prayers were read in Latin by the Vatican camerlengo, or chamberlain, Cardinal Eduardo Martinez Somalo of Spain. "With the reverent pilgrimage in front of his remains, we thank God for the good that through him was given to his church, and we implore his mercy for the faults that our pastor has committed due to human weakness. We beg the Lord to welcome him into his kingdom and to grant him the prize for the trials that he endured for the Gospel," he said. The viewing was carried live on Italy's other television stations.

"Our Holy Father looks very much at peace. It was very satisfying for all of us to see him so serene," Cardinal Roger Mahony of Los Angeles said after visiting the room where the pope's body lay in state. "He was such a brilliant light for the world," he said, comparing Pope John Paul's life to the candle burning on his bedside. The pope died very serenely Saturday evening, "like Jesus," he said.

The pontiff's body was put on display at 12:30 p.m. for officials of the Roman Curia, authorities and the diplomatic corps. The body will be transferred from the Apostolic Palace on Monday afternoon for public viewing in St. Peter's Basilica.

The Vatican said the ancient ritual of the confirmation of the death and the certification of death was carried out at 9:30 a.m. Sunday. In the past, the ritual had involved tapping the pope's head three times with a silver hammer, but the last version of the official Vatican document outlining the procedures does not mention the silver hammer, saying only that the camerlengo "must officially ascertain the pope's death."

[salter-path]

Network coverage

Expect wall-to-wall coverage today of Pope John Paul II's death. Here's a network by network rundown:

CBS: Coverage begins at 7 a.m., with a special report. At 9, a special edition of "Sunday Morning" starts, followed by a 10:30 edition of "Face the Nation." A program on how the next pope will be chosen airs 7 p.m. on "60 Minutes."

CNN: "American Morning" will air from 7 to noon. "Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer" picks up the coverage from noon to 3 p.m., followed by more live coverage from 4 to 7 p.m. A "People in the News" special report airs from 7 to 8 p.m., then "CNN Sunday." A "Larry King Live" special will air from 9 to 10.

ABC: From 7 to 9 a.m., a special edition of "Good Morning America" with Diane Sawyer and Bill Weir in New York, and Charlie Gibson and Kate Snow in Rome. That's followed by "This Week," anchored by George Will from Rome, and George Stephanopoulos. The show features an interview with former archbishop of Boston Cardinal Bernard Law.

Fox News Channel: "Fox & Friends" begins at 6 a.m., followed by "Fox News Live" from 10 to noon. "Weekend Live" picks up then, and is followed from 2 to 7 p.m., with an extended edition of "Fox News Live," with Shepard Smith in Rome.

NBC: A special extended edition of "Today" begins at 7, with Matt Lauer and Katie Couric in Rome, followed by a live edition of "Meet the Press" at 10:30.

MSNBC coverage details were not available at deadline.

[Guest ranster627]

Thanks so much salter-path! Fascinating that it took this long for the official diagnosis of Parkinsons to be revealed.

Here are some more interesting facts and thoughts:

Did you know that according to the (apolostlistic sp?) constitution of the Vatican that the Pope must be buried between the 4th and 5th day after death? This means Wednesday - Friday this week.

Although to some it may seem unseemly, the speculation regarding the conclave to come is rampant ... for the Catholic faith it is the most important event however, and the speculation is also traditional.

It seems to come down to these issues (add any I forget):

Will they select a Pope to modernize the church, stick to doctrine and tradition (which John Paul II did) or somewhere in the middle (Vatican II)?

Will they select a Pope from Italy bringing the church home?

Will they select a Pope from South America or Africa where the church continues to grow and where the most Catholics reside? This also raises the issue of whether they would ever select a Pope of another race or ethicity (something that was highly speculated about last time).

Will they select a caretaker Pope (I call it a rebound Pope), to continue the legacy of the previous Pope with little change, but prepare for a new direction with the next Pope?

Will they select a Pope from an obscure area that will enhance the focus on that region (ie: a Pope from a country dominated by another faith)?

The conclave will be fascinating as there are many free thinking Cardinals who have been appointed by Pope John Paul II and it is arguable that there are two camps, described as conservative and liberal. We may be in for a surprise though and the fractures may have been overblown meaning that the selection will be very quick?

[Guest Anonymous]

I believe, as you said Ranster, that the speculation is quite traditional, as the only ones who will really know what takes place in the conclave are those who are a part of it. It is all completely behind closed doors -- no outside interference at all -- and once it a vote is completed the only telling sign that a vote took place is the smoke that tells whether the vote was successful (white smoke) or unsuccessful (black smoke.) Another unwritten tradition is that the conclave always surprises everyone -- including the attendees.

[Guest ranster627]

Another interesting factoid about the conclave is that the Cardinals are sequestered without cell phones, news, or anything. To preserve the secrecy all locations where they are are sweeped for bugs.

This time they will be more comfortable however, as they will be shuttled back and forth to a hotel. It used to be that they stayed in place until a decision was made.

[Guest GaYToR]

I've now seen more clarifying reports about where the Cardinals will be staying at night. Rather than a "hotel" it is actually a dormitory at the Vatican. The name of the dormitory is Casa di Santa Marta. It is a Vatican residence, and will also be swept for bugs, etc, just as the Sistine Chapel will be, to keep any and all information in conclave.

A Jacobite Gazetteer - The Vatican

Palazzino di Santa Marta

This palace is now destroyed. It was formerly the residence of the Archpriest of the Vatican Basilica, an office held by Henry, Cardinal Duke of York (later King Henry IX and I) from 1752 until his death. The palace was located immediately to the south of the south transept of St. Peter's Basilica.

Palazzino di Santa Marta

On the same site a new building was completed in 1995 which is called "Casa di Santa Marta". This building is used to house various groups of ecclesiastics and will be the residence of the cardinals during the next papal conclave. An excellent view of "Casa di Santa Marta" can be had from the dome of St. Peter's.

Casa di Santa Marta

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notes

Image 1 (Palazzino di Santa Marta): Giuseppe Vasi, Delle magnificenze di Roma antica e moderna (Rome: Stamperia del Chracas, 1747-1761): IX, plate 166.

Image 2 (Casa di Santa Marta):

[Guest ranster627]

Thanks GaYToR ...

It is official, the Pope's funeral will be Friday, April 8th.

Further, his body will be moved for public viewing at St. Peter's today.

One last rumour squelched ... the Pope will be buried at St. Peter's, and not in Poland as some had speculated.

[Guest Anonymous]

I found this very detailed description and history of the conclave for anyone interested. Its actually quite interesting to see this full description in that much of what goes on is forbidden to outsiders. I was most interested in the ceremony involved.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04192a.htm

[Guest ranster627]

Just a thought here:

After reading the wonderful link provided by Spooky and with the info from GaYToR ...

I really think it could be a mistake that the Cardinals will be allowed to spend nights at the "dorm". It will make it too easy for them to delay ...

[Guest Anonymous]

As I understand it they are actually secluded not only from the public but also from each other. It's pretty interesting to hear of a conclave lasting 2 years! And the idea of putting them on bread and water if it takes too long to decide is almost frightful!

[Guest ranster627]

I saw a piece on CNN about that Spooky, they are secluded from the outside, but NIOT each other ... the Dorm has 4 beds to a room from what I saw ...

[Guest ranster627]

Well it might be a part of the new conclave rules then -- I was referring to the article I listed where they were confined to their rooms with no conversation with anyone -- including each other.

I think you are right on there ...

I wonder, with the new relaxation of tradition, will it be a short conclave or longer?

[Guest Anonymous]

Well the reason for the conclave was to make it shorter (let's hope they don't take two years!!)

[Guest GaYToR]

Snippits and Rumors

Things I heard on CNN in the wee hours of the morning.

Many are calling for Pope John Paul II to be called John Paul the Great. This is a title bestowed on only 2 other popes in history. No one bothered to name the other two, and I haven't bothered to reseach this yet to see who they were. Interesting idea, and I tend to agree.

Poland has asked that since the Holy Father wil be buried at the Vatican, that his heart be removed so that it can be buried in his home land. This is not with out precedence, since another native son was buried this way. Fryderyck Chopin (1801-1849) was buried in Paris, while his heart was removed and sent to Poland for interment. ("On 17 October 1849, Chopin died of pulmonary tuberculosis in his Parisian flat in the Place Vend

[Guest Anonymous]

Again according to the Catholic Encyclopedia the names "the Great" were :

Pope St. Leo I the Great (Reigned 440-61)

Pope St. Gregory I the Great (Reigned 590-604)

Pope St. Nicholas I the Great (858-67)

So that would make three given the name. Note that all three were sainted as well.

[salter-path]

Pope's Mystery Cardinal Could Be Revealed

By FRANCES D'EMILIO, Associated Press Writer

VATICAN CITY - What happens to the mystery cardinal the late Pope John Paul II selected in 2003 but never publicly identified?

Will the world ever find out who was picked?

Vatican watchers wondered Monday whether there was still a way in accordance with Church law for this unidentified "prince of the Church" to take his place among the cardinals and, if he is young enough, vote for the new pope.

When John Paul created new cardinals in 2003, he announced that he was keeping one name secret, or "in pectore," meaning "in the heart." This is a formula that has been used when the pope wants to name a cardinal in a country where the church is oppressed.

Vatican watchers have speculated that the prelate could be from China, where only a state-sanctioned church is recognized. But Polish Archbishop Stanislaw Dziwisz, 65, John Paul's longtime private secretary who was at his bedside when he died, has also been mentioned as the possible secret cardinal.

The Rev. James Conn, a professor of canon law at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome, said that if John Paul identified the man in writing in some authenticated document before he died, the man would be a cardinal. "I think that any means of publishing the name of the cardinal that was previously not revealed, including in some testimonial that was authenticated, would be acceptable," Conn said.

Canon law says only that the pope has to make his name public. But it doesn't say whether that has to be done orally, he said. Once the name is made public, the cardinal "is bound by the same duties and possesses the same rights" of the other cardinals, including the right to vote for a new pope if he is younger than 80, canon law says. There are now 117 cardinals eligible to vote in the conclave to elect John Paul's successor.

John Paul has named three other "in pectore" cardinals whose names were later revealed, including Marian Jaworski, archbishop of Lviv, Ukraine, for Catholics who follow the Latin rite, and Janis Pujats of Riga, Latvia. Both Ukraine and Latvia formerly belonged to the officially atheist Soviet Union. The third was Ignatius Kung Pin-Mei, an elderly Chinese bishop who spent 30 years in Chinese prisons for defying attempts by China's communist government to control Roman Catholics through the state-run church.

While in prison in 1979, he was named "in pectore" by John Paul in the first group of cardinals named by the pontiff. His name was made public in 1991, nine years before he died in Connecticut at the age of 98.

[Guest Anonymous]

Thanks for that Salter -- I was wondering about the mystery cardinal.